Management, Operations, Developers & Open Source

Brian posed an interesting but familiar question with his blog post titled "Does ColdFusion's Cost Inhibit Its Development?". On the surface I thought this post was going to be an argument for making ColdFusion free, but he's crafty… it's really about open source development. Brian argues that, because Adobe sells software it's somehow misguided about what's best for the product. That rather than listen exclusively to developers, we're too focused on pleasing Managers, who in the end… write the checks. A valid argument, but far from the truth.

Brian says:

…each new version ColdFusion includes any number of features intended to impress the person holding the purse strings more so than the developers using the product.

Fair enough. The first part is true. There are a number of features that go into ColdFusion specifically for Management. What is plain wrong is that they go into the product at the sacrifice to what developers want. Since ColdFusion 1.0, the Developers always come first. But there are other forces at play in ColdFusion's growth that need to be recognized.

The Players

'Management' is the group who sign the checks. They don't care about interfaces, JavaScript operators or implicit notation. They don't care about OO, although they'll tell you how important code reuse is. They need to solve problems immediately and writing checks is a strong weapon in their arsenal. In a cruel twist of fate, these Managers who usually know the least of technology end up with the power to make the major technical decisions. The problem Brian outlines assumes this, but it should also be said that there are plenty of good Managers out there. Good Managers who agree that if the Developers and Operations are happy, then they are happy. Unfortunately for us all, good Managers are like good Developers… rare.

Brian focused solely on Management and Developers but there is another group which holds a lot of weight... 'Operations' is the group that is charged with the day-to-day management of servers. This is also the group in charge of upgrading, which is why they are so critical. Regardless of how much Developers want a new version, this group can cite a number of reasons to deny said version (security concerns, effort to upgrade, stability, etc). We won this group over in ColdFusion 8 with the server monitor and performance gains. Upgrading any environment is a pain. With CF8 most SysAdmins were eager to upgrade since it meant better management tools/options.

That being said, it's important to understand these other groups and the role they play. However, I think Brian overestimates the effort that goes towards 'Management' and 'Operations' features. I particularly don't agree with versions of CF being labeled as 'feature' versions. ColdFusion 6 was a brand new platform. ColdFusion 7 (the closest I'll concede to a feature release) was actually a stability and foundation release. In a perfect world, we'd be able to sell stability and foundation. But the world isn't perfect, so we had to sprinkle in a little app.cfc, CFDOCUMENT and flash remoting. ColdFusion 8 was referred to internally as the community release. We basically went through a long laundry list that had piled up since CF5 and went to task. Everything we added to ColdFusion 8 solved a problem for a large portion of our customers. I've heard the argument for and the argument against each and every feature. Brian doesn't think the UI/AJAX controls of CF8 were useful, but the vast majority of our customers are using ColdFusion 8 to build their very first AJAX application.

Did I Miss The Part Where Adobe Became Bad Guys?

In a comment, Matt wants to imply that because ColdFusion is made by a company who employs the best Software Engineers in the world and not by part time coders who donate their skills, that ColdFusion is inherently flawed. He wants to paint a picture of a stark Adobe where everyone wears suits and speaks solely in buzzwords and market share. An Adobe where meetings are held in dimly lit boardrooms and hours are lost debating over the colors of pie chart slices.

Matt said:

I have very grave concerns about the path things seem to be taking with ColdFusion as a product and I personally think it's time Adobe hits the pause button and really thinks about some of these issues before blindly forging ahead and cramming everything they can think of into ColdFusion 9.

Pretty strong words for someone who has no idea what's even being planned for Centaur. He's just making assumptions based on his views of the product, which have drastically shifted since he took a leadership role with OpenBD. If I remember correctly, Matt only caught the last 10 minutes of a 2+ hour open forum we had with developers at cf.Objective() on Centaur. We simply asked for feature ideas and wrote down everything that was said. I guess Matt disagrees with taking direction from the community.

The fact is, while you are asleep, we're actively building ColdFusion. When you drive to work, QA teams are pouring over test cases. When you're eating lunch specifications are being written. While you're spending those precious few hours between work and sleep building an admin console for OpenBD, we'll be hard at work growing the community. We follow enterprise best practices in software development and employ world-class Engineers, QA, Designers, Writers, etc. We can do this, because we sell ColdFusion. Profit doesn't drive us, it funds us.

You assume we only come to work every day to collect a paycheck. On a good week, I'll only put in about 65 hours. I breathe, eat and drink ColdFusion. I'm honored to be part of this team. There isn't a salary high enough to get me to do this job for another product or another company and I'm not alone. We get to build the product we love, and we get paid to do it! In all fairness, I think you and the OpenBD team have a lot to prove before you can start criticizing ColdFusion releases that haven't happened yet.

And I say these things with all the love for OpenBD in the world. J

Centaur

Centaur will be a drastically different release from the previous eight. The success for ColdFusion 8 and strong support from Adobe have given us a bit of creative freedom to re-think what Rapid Application Development means today and what it will mean tomorrow. The vision of this release isn't just focused on Developers; it's focused on Advanced Developers. We'll be introducing a number of features that will probably be outside the comfort zone for most of our customers. This release is about raising the bar. It's about evolving the server. It's about empowering our community.

Open Process Initiative

Announced at cf.Objective() 2008, the Open Process Initiative is meant to bring a higher level of transparency into the development and design of ColdFusion. Committees are now being formed to drive the direction of several areas of ColdFusion (including committees for CFML/CFSCRIPT, RIA Integration and a few aptly named groups that must remain anonymous for now). Adobe's support for ColdFusion is critical. We are working diligently towards the next generation of the web, but we can't get there without you. Just because ColdFusion isn't open source, doesn't mean we have some of the benefits of open source. The OPI will also open up the ColdFusion bug base and feature request system to the public. You'll be able to submit and track bugs, inspire new features, and vote on the features submitted by others. Just be sure not to share the URL with your Manager, or we'll be forced to build <CFSETTING isWeb2.0="true"/>. (I'm joking!)

Comments

Todd Rafferty

Todd Rafferty wrote on 05/29/08 7:05 AM

Good post Adam.

I'm definitely looking forward to a public bug base and seeing a little bit more of the process. I just hope, if anything, the community will embrace the bug/enhancement a little bit and not turn it into an ego contest of who submitted the most.

Has Adobe figured out enhancement/bug "voting" yet and what it is going to mean? There was definitely some "meh" about the feature during alpha/beta phases.

p.s. Something is wrong with your captcha. It took 3 submits for it to finally display on the screen.
Joshua Cyr

Joshua Cyr wrote on 05/29/08 9:20 AM

Well said. Also subscribing.

To be fair to Brian, he wasn't completely sold on his hypothesis, he simply posted it to get feedback. I also think a lot of people didn't get the real question he was getting at (you clearly did).

Brian:
"This shouldn't be read as a dig at Adobe or the ColdFusion team in any way, just a hypothesis that I have been mostly debating with myself and have decided to solicit opinions on. I am playing a bit of devil's advocate here since I am not totally convinced of my own argument, nonetheless the goal is to solicit discussion."

Looking forward to OPI.
Peter Bell

Peter Bell wrote on 05/29/08 9:55 AM

Great post! I wish OpenBD and Railo (and Smith) the very best, but I can't say as they're terribly interesting for my use cases.

I've got to say that I've been consistently impressed with MX, 7, 8 and (soon hopefully) 9. I think Adobe is well aware of the competition for dynamic scripting languages on the JVM (hello Groovy, JRuby, Jython, Scala, . . .) and is going to be smart enough to continue to make hard things easy while providing a reason for their more advanced developers to stick with the platform.

I also really see a halo effect with Flex and I'm finding it easier to sell CF to agencies now I can talk about it as "the back end for Flex". And while I'm one of the cheap b*ggers who only uses standard, I certainly don't see sticker shock on a $1200 license as part of a $25k project.

I know I could install LCDS express and use Groovy or JRuby as a back end for free, and I know that some more experienced devs will get less out of stuff like the CF AJAX tags (I'm happy with using jQuery and ext-js directly) but for me Adobe's continuing to add enough value to justify the licensing costs and I think they've been listening hard enough that CF9 will be as cool if not cooler than CF8 (which I'll take for oMM(), improved operators and the performance benefits - I'm finally writing a CF8 only framework and I love it!).

(Could you *make* the captcha any longer?!)
Adam Haskell

Adam Haskell wrote on 05/29/08 10:53 AM

I'd like to hope everyone sees the positive in having both commercial versions and open source versions. Also I think Adobe could work a bit more to educate the community on the difference between language and the bigger platform picture. Even as an OpenBD steering committee member I am really looking forward to the next ColdFusion release because I like Adobe's _platform_. At Kroger we use the ColdFusion _platform_. Maybe some day OpenBD will "catch up" in that arena (in the community's eyes) maybe in other area's like language innovation (maybe) openBD will lead. One thing I really hope I do not see is implementation of similar features in different ways (application mappings and threading for example). This only hurts the community.
Tom Chiverton

Tom Chiverton wrote on 05/29/08 11:10 AM

"ColdFusion 9 will be a drastically different release from the previous eight"
Please. please stop saying things like that, and then not explaining what the hell you mean. You (meaning Adobe) are scaring people...
Brian Rinaldi

Brian Rinaldi wrote on 05/29/08 11:44 AM

Good post Adam. I think the feedback on the post has been very good so far. Also thanks to Josh for clarifying I was somewhat stirring the pot by posing a question that I haven't really answered myself.

I am coming from a place where I am not convinced OpenBD is a solution to anything while lamenting what Ted Patrck referred to today as "the Adobe walled garden of knowledge." This walled garden still applies to CF though it is getting better and the "open process initiative" if done right can do a good deal to address this.

Not all ideas that come out of the community are good ones (hmm...cfinterface?). I am happy though to hear that CF9 will be geared towards advanced developers. I think this can only continue to push CF developers to grow. I have no problem with CF's cause of making difficult things easy...its when CF starts making easy things easier I have an issue (thus my concern with the cf/ajax stuff).

I feel as though we shouldn't be helping folks to not even learn the basics. We've always had this issue to an extent. Even in CF5 people could learn cfquery/cfoutput and build a decent dynamic site, leaving them thinking they have mastered CF and web development. Things have changed a bit and I don't know if that is the case anymore because of the challenges of richer UI's but we need to push along the community to create better developers and we need the language not the get in the way of that by making easy things stupid easy.

Again I ramble because this topic is too large to answer in a comment but the discussion is a good one. Thanks!
Neil

Neil wrote on 05/29/08 12:03 PM

"Centaur will be a drastically different release from the previous eight."

Please would you explain...? It seems scary for CF developers

Thanks
Justin Carter

Justin Carter wrote on 05/29/08 12:34 PM

Drastically different from the previous 8... What could possibly change so much? Server licensing will be free? :)

I didn't think Brian was really pushing the OS bandwagon at all, and he explicitly said that wasn't what he was getting at. It was just about the price and about the target market.

I want to see CF9 target the developers who *haven't* already got strong allegiances to language X plus umpteen years of experience, because that's where the largest pool of potential talent will come from. Obviously I don't know Adobe's plans for CF9, but I wouldn't be confident that targetting "advanced developers" with the promise of Amazing New Advanced Developer Feature(s) (tm) would be enough to lure them away from their existing, tried and tested platforms; especially if their platforms don't cost them a licensing fee every time they roll out a server.

To be perfectly honest, I still think price is the number 1 reason that more developers don't pick up ColdFusion. Sometimes Management, Operations and Open Source don't even come into the equation - think young developers, students, and graduates going for their first job(s).
Mike Brunt

Mike Brunt wrote on 05/29/08 12:52 PM

Adam L, your blog posts are always meaty and well written, as is this one. I am on the the OpenBD Steering Committee for one reason; Alan Willamson. Before almost anyone Alan saw the benefit of running CFML on Java. Rumors abound that the Allaire brothers and he chatted about that around the same time that Allaire were talking with Live Software (JRun).

I see no bad things coming from OpenBD and whether it will be admitted or not, Adobe will be influenced to a greater or lesser extent by the OpenBD initiative to the benefit of the community. Like you, I have lived and breathed ColdFusion, in my work life, for many years, the last 12 to be exact.

Thanks for these great blog pieces which stir spirited and reasoned debate. By the way, we absolutely have to pay attention to the management level in our business, in my opinion.
Matt Woodward

Matt Woodward wrote on 05/29/08 1:01 PM

Seems I hit a nerve ...

Honestly I find much of your criticism of what I said on Brian's blog to be A) stock FUD against open source efforts (the whole "part time coders" thing might as well have come from Steve Ballmer himself), and B) totally unfounded. I work on many open source projects that live and die by taking direction from their communities, so I find it offensive, quite frankly, that you would suggest that I don't think that's important.

If I didn't care about the community I wouldn't spend most of my free time engaging in activities that--I hope at any rate--benefit the community. And I would certainly hope that suggestions from the community that something NOT be done with ColdFusion would be weighed equally with all the "put this in there" comments that are made. That's the only point I was really trying to make.
Sean Corfield

Sean Corfield wrote on 05/29/08 1:48 PM

I will start out by saying that I'm very excited about Centaur based on everything I've heard about it so far. Adobe made a huge leap with ColdFusion 8 and I think Centaur will be seen as an even bigger leap forward that will greatly please various constituencies that have a stake in ColdFusion's success.

That said, I find your negativity toward certain people and certain projects to be in stark contrast to how your predecessor handled such issues - at least publicly.

I would hope that you feel anything that has the potential to increase the take-up of CFML (the language) is beneficial to the CF community in the long run. If you believe so fervently that Adobe ColdFusion is the best CFML product on the market, then you should be encouraging OpenBD and its team since they may draw in new developers who will then "trade up" to the Adobe product. Taking pot shots at the open source community does nothing to improve Adobe's image in the broader community.

I'm a huge fan of ColdFusion after my initial exposure in 2001 when my team at Macromedia first started using what would ultimately become CFMX. I'm happily deploying my company's new web platform on top of CF8.0.1 Enterprise on 64-bit Linux and we're figuring out how many more licenses we need to buy and on what schedule. My company is a huge advocate of Adobe, heavily reliant on Adobe products, sponsoring local Adobe User Groups and paying for our team members to speak at Adobe technology conferences.

I'm also a member of the OpenBD steering committee and think it's good for the community. I don't believe it will harm Adobe in any way. I believe it will allow CFML to be used for projects where it would not have been considered in the past - cost-sensitive projects where the previous choice would have been PHP or some other free open source technology. I believe enabling CFML to be used on more projects is beneficial to the entire CF community.

I don't see OpenBD as a "competitor". I see it as complementary. I want to see compatibility in the core language but I don't see the point in expending lots of effort trying to duplicate the higher-end, powerful features of the Adobe product. If people want those features, they should buy the Adobe product - they add huge value and make the cost so easy to justify.
Brock Baxter

Brock Baxter wrote on 05/29/08 2:05 PM

I'm with you, Adam.

In many ways, the open source movement is just a fad. I agree, Adobe has the best programmers in the world, and in turn the rest of us learn from you and succeed by using your work--the best products in the world.

It's the same way with microsoft, it is fashionable to hate microsoft though I'm sorry they basically invented the computer. Adobe has done so much for computing and for people that I think its just wrong to try to do something else.

It's called a free market, and if adobe and microsoft and google are at the top of their fields there is a reason and we need to respect that reason and remember who is signing our paychecks. That is adobe, and I for one will stand by adobe no matter how "good" or "free" people say openBD is.
Andy Powell

Andy Powell wrote on 05/29/08 2:23 PM

@Adam I appreciate your passion. However, I am deeply concerned about both your tone and the impression that it conveys to the community as a whole. You are, for all intensive purposes, one of the few faces of ColdFusion (and Adobe at large) to the community. Anything you post, inherently, carries the weight of Adobe behind it.

I agree with most of your points, but I believe you could have been a bit more diplomatic in making them. Coming out with both guns blazing does nothing to galvanize the community as a whole. In fact, it has just the opposite effect.
Todd Rafferty

Todd Rafferty wrote on 05/29/08 2:45 PM

Am I the only one that didn't mind the "coming out with both guns blazing"? At least I know where Adam stands and it's not happy-go-fluffy marketing drivel?

So, you may or may not agree, but at least appreciate the candor?
Adrock

Adrock wrote on 05/29/08 3:07 PM

@All -When I say Centaur will be a different release, I mean it in a very positive way. It's different from the perspective of what we're planning, and how we're building it. Join us at MAX in San Francisco this year to find out more.

@Joshua - Definitely understand where Brian is coming from. He brought up this post over an IM chat and wanted to get my impressions. Brian is a bit devious though... cuz he's under NDA and knows all about Centaur. ;-)

@Matt - You may want to look up the definition of FUD. It stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt... which is exactly what you cast on ColdFusion 9 without any knowledge of what's being planned. You also accused us of only being concerned with making money, which I find very offensive.

@Sean - In all fairness Matt's comment on Brian's blog was a bit out of line and very negative. I shared my skepticism on OpenBD when it was announced and I've left it at that. I'm not the one going around commenting on my 'grave concerns' for the direction of OpenBD.

There is the old saying that you need to break some eggs in order to make an omelet. That's a bit true in this case, because there is a requirement to criticize ColdFusion in order to justify OpenBD (completely understandable). But I think Matt's comments are kin to choking the chicken before it can lay the egg.

As I've said before, there are a number of reasons why I can't put my heart behind OpenBD. Fundamentally, I don't believe that it will attract new developers. I think it will just continue with New Atlanta's strategy to chip away at the existing ColdFusion customer base. I really want to be wrong on this, but I've yet to see the new developer or company adopting CFML where they weren't before.

OpenBD is still new and fresh and it will admittedly take some time to get there. So far, the only thing it's done is create a divide in the community and damage long standing relationships.

I'd like to foster the 'complimentary' relationship, but the trade-up proposition isn't realistic today. 1) Most BD apps won't run on ColdFusion due to the language incompatibility which is only going to get worse 2) New Atlanta sells OpenBD, so that's _the_ trade-up.
Sami Hoda

Sami Hoda wrote on 05/29/08 4:46 PM

Subscribing..

Being also under NDA... let me say Centaur will blow people away. I got goosebumps when Adam presented some high level stuff...

I wish the best to OpenBD and other projects, but from what I've seen, Adobe is cleaning up and leap frogging CF to the next level. (trying to be as generic in my comments as possible) Time will tell if OpenBD and others can keep up. Wish them all the best...

I think when the details for Centaur will be opened up more, the cost debate will become harder to make because of the coming value proposition.

It doesn't mean Adobe doesn't make mistakes, its just that what's coming will shut a lot of people up.

Glad this debate is going on though!
Sean Corfield

Sean Corfield wrote on 05/29/08 5:58 PM

Adam, New Atlanta does *not* sell OpenBD. OpenBD is a free open source project that anyone can download the binary or source of.
Todd Rafferty

Todd Rafferty wrote on 05/29/08 8:55 PM

@Sean : I can't tell if Adam is suggesting that New Atlanta would sell off OpenBD or if he's suggesting "sell" in a loose term as you know that whatever OpenBD gets as an "idea" that it'll eventually roll over into their BD.NET product (conveniently, of course).
Terrence Ryan

Terrence Ryan wrote on 05/30/08 1:07 AM

I'm mostly just commenting to subscribe.

But as someone who's gotten some flack for suggesting a manger's feature - "cfvideo" - I have to say I really like this post. The fact is as a for pay product ColdFusion needs to cater (or pander) to all of it's constituents. Those constituents include a vast majority of ColdFusion programmers that don't participate on blogs, or get to wear the label of thought leader. I ask for features that I need. I ask for features for which I have use cases. Why all of this consternation that extra features get added? If you don't need it, don't use it. If you want a free ColdFusion use OpenBD.
Brian Meloche

Brian Meloche wrote on 05/30/08 1:34 AM

First, I am a die hard CFML fan. I pledge allegiance to CFML, the language, first and foremost. I would not want to develop a web application around anything else but CFML. To me, there's not much point. Why build something in another language that takes me twice as long to do? I don't have the attention span to take two weeks to build something that would take me a week in CFML. If I'm not getting paid for taking longer to build it, there's no point

Second, I am also an Adobe guy, tried and true, and it's been that way for twelve years (if you take my first exposure to the company into account, with Illustrator and Photoshop). In fact, my three favorite software companies, circa 1999 - Allaire, Macromedia and Adobe, are now one as Adobe. I can't tell you how happy that made me three years ago, and continues to make me very happy. ColdFusion is my preferred CFML engine, and I don't see that changing.

So, in the CF world, my allegiances are CFML, then Adobe ColdFusion, in that order.

As such, I am hopeful about OpenBD because I want CFML to reach a wider developer community, and an open source CFML engine could do that in ways that I think many in the community don't seem to get. In my many years of running Adobe/Macromedia/ColdFusion user groups, I cannot tell you how many times developers I have talked to have refused to give ColdFusion a chance because either it wasn't free and/or it wasn't open source. I say either because there are some that wouldn't touch .NET either because it's proprietary, and some because it's not free. They are not the same reason, nor should they be construed as such. For many developers, they prefer working with an open source solution and/or a free one. For those developers who are not tied zealously to a language but are zealously open source, I hope that some of them will investigate Open BD and choose to use it over PHP, Ruby, Groovy, Python or JSP. That will be the gateway for some of them to convert to Adobe's product, as they need more features and CF9, which I know will be amazing. I think Open BD can only expand the CFML developer community. If Open BD is mature, it can be used in more hosting providers, and can also be taught in schools cheaply, more than Adobe/Macromedia/Allaire ColdFusion ever could. That is a good thing. Is it a certainty that it is a good thing in the long term? Absolutely not. Can it affect Adobe's revenues? Possibly.

I see Open BlueDragon as a CFML engine alternative, and something that can only be good for the community as a whole. It puts some pressure on Adobe to continue to innovate. I think OpenBD can fit the bill for some use cases, but most use cases will continue to be better served by Adobe ColdFusion. Adobe's CF team should just keep doing what they are doing and keep building a great server we love.

I see New Atlanta and maybe now the steering committee being seen as villains by some. The way I look at it: Someone was eventually going to release a viable open source CFML engine. The Smith Project never gained any steam because they never got this far on the viability curve, but it could have easily been that project. Perhaps the Railo guys had thought about it, too. It just happens to have been Open BlueDragon. Steering committee members, I think, are going into it with the best of intentions, but I am concerned they may get excommunicated by Adobe in the medium to long term. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen. I see Matt has resigned as an Adobe Community Expert. I assume it's over this discussion. I hope that's not a sign of things to come. If it is, that's very unfortunate.

I am under NDA, but I was not briefed on CF9, so I can't say anything I don't know. However, I will assume that Adobe is building us an IDE. If Adobe is smart, they will allow this IDE to code competitor CFML engines and not force you to use ColdFusion. That way, even if they lose some licenses of the server, they will gain licenses on the IDE that they would otherwise lose. I think developers are more willing to spring for the cost of an IDE than a server. True, not all, but I would think a significant number would pay for a great CFML IDE.

I admire Adam's passion here, and it's something I can sympathize with. If I was an Adobe employee, I'd probably feel the same way, and perhaps I'd say my allegiances would reverse.

I'll be making an announcement in the coming days about what I am doing to promote ColdFusion and CFML, and show my allegiances. Look for it. I think you'll know it when you see it.

Great discussion so far!
Brian Meloche

Brian Meloche wrote on 05/30/08 1:49 AM

I'll clarify my reply a tiny bit.

>>I say either because there are some that wouldn't touch .NET either because it's proprietary, and some because it's not free. They are not the same reason, nor should they be construed as such.

What I meant here was that some developers wouldn't touch ColdFusion for the same reason they wouldn't touch .NET - it's proprietary - and they would prefer instead an open source language. Some developers wouldn't touch ColdFusion because it's not free, and would touch .NET because it's free (at least on the surface).
Brian Meloche

Brian Meloche wrote on 05/30/08 8:22 AM

I'll clarify my reply a tiny bit.

>>I say either because there are some that wouldn't touch .NET either because it's proprietary, and some because it's not free. They are not the same reason, nor should they be construed as such.

What I meant here was that some developers wouldn't touch ColdFusion for the same reason they wouldn't touch .NET - it's proprietary - and they would prefer instead an open source language. Some developers wouldn't touch ColdFusion because it's not free, and would touch .NET because it's free (at least on the surface).
Jason Blum

Jason Blum wrote on 05/30/08 9:10 AM

Just want to subscribe and to echo some of the basic truths I think everyone ultimately agrees on: 1) Adobe is for-profit, but employs some brilliant and passionate people & 2) as much as we all love ColdFusion, it IS the open source community which has really stepped up in recent years with the contributions that are truly transforming the way we build applications: CFEclipse, Transfer, CFWeekly, ColdSpring, Mach-II, ColdFusion Meetup, etc. <cfajaxproxy> is cool - but as we CFML scripters grow up, it's the frameworks and tools that are having a far greater impact on how we work. And its important to recognize those are all coming from volunteers.

Also want to echo Sean's and Andy's comments to go easy on the tone. Agree with Todd it's cool to see passion - but no need to single out and misrepresent indviduals, particularly folks who have inspired so many of your customers. You really do need to make more an effort to work with the community to standardize CFML - at least establish tiered specs of the language. And you need to explain more about why the trade-up proposition isn't realistic - sounds tenable to me (tho I grant I know nothing about the complex marketing and planning that has to go on behind each release.) Oh one last comment: I'm also hoping you're totally wrong about OpenBD not attracting new CFML-ers. I think it has the potential to catch on in big eastern europe, for instance, where LAMP solutions reign. P.S. Which apps run on BD but won't run on CF? You say most. I can't think of any.
Sammy Larbi

Sammy Larbi wrote on 05/30/08 9:11 AM

"Good Managers who agree that if the Developers and Operations are happy, then they are happy. "

I thought that point was ignored in the post you referenced from Brian. I don't even think you have to be a good manager to realize that - you just have to not suck.

"The vision of this release isn't just focused on Developers; it's focused on Advanced Developers. We'll be introducing a number of features that will probably be outside the comfort zone for most of our customers. This release is about raising the bar. It's about evolving the server. It's about empowering our community."

I'm interested to know more already!
Brian Rinaldi

Brian Rinaldi wrote on 05/30/08 10:52 AM

@Sammy - my post is obviously based on my experience. In the larger companies I worked at my direct manager was not the person directly making large technology decisions like "do we use cf". That was often up the chain...and sadly the further up the chain you went the less they seemed know or care about how the developers feel.
Rae

Rae wrote on 05/30/08 12:01 PM

@noname - there's this great feature in your browser that let's you disable CSS which may improve your reading experience (or are you using IE?!?!) ;)
Neil

Neil wrote on 05/30/08 3:39 PM

@Adam We all love CF but I think you are wrong on some points like "profit" CF8 standard is not supported on 64 bit OS, only enterprise; so simply adobe is looking for more money.

you believe or not openBD is getting successful, we have already ported three Apps because CF cost is too high in europe.

I really appreciate your passion for CF but keep in mind that high price tag certainly have a big effect.

Its seems from your tone that CF9 will have long list of features and price might be too higher even small/medium size companies stop thinking about CF solution.

Please Please stop saying that you work day/night for CF because at the end CF cost is £5500 more than ten-thousand dollars for one server.

If possible then please clear about pricing issue.
Neil

Neil wrote on 05/30/08 4:07 PM

@Adam one more thing forgot to mention that Matt is one of the coool guy who have great participation for CFML community. Bad news that Matt has resigned from adobe community expert.

I think you should weigh yourself with Matt in-terms of participation then think where you are.

Hope next time no one should resign from adobe community expert because you don't like openBD.
anon

anon wrote on 05/30/08 8:15 PM

Total ditto of Neil's last comment. Things must be going pretty well if you can afford to lost guys like Matt Woodward. Adobe's in a good position, but you know you just can't. My advice: back off, apologize and ask yourself: WWBFD?
Calvin

Calvin wrote on 05/30/08 8:37 PM

@Adam: "Most BD apps won't run on ColdFusion due to the language incompatibility which is only going to get worse"

As long as there are any significant incompatabilities, alternative engines only make it harder to get traction and momentum. ColdFusion/CFML is supposed to make it easier to deliver applications, not add another layer of useless version checking with work arounds, or coding to a LCD, or coding to a particular vendor and resulting in locking in to a degree anyway. If BD, Open or not, matched CFML 100% in features it did implement, then it might be worth looking at.

@Jason: "as much as we all love ColdFusion, it IS the open source community which has really stepped up in recent years with the contributions that are truly transforming the way we build applications: CFEclipse, Transfer, CFWeekly, ColdSpring, Mach-II, ColdFusion Meetup, etc. <cfajaxproxy> is cool - but as we CFML scripters grow up, it's the frameworks and tools that are having a far greater impact on how we work. And its important to recognize those are all coming from volunteers."

If folks want to contribute to ColdFusion's success, the above focuses are where the real payoff will be. Contributing to a less than compatable version of CFML run by a competing vendor that is simply duplicating (unsuccessfully in some ways) the platform seems pointless. Instead, all of the OpenBD energy could be investing in Open Source projects on the ColdFUsion platform that extend it's capabilities and reach to match that of other platforms.

@Neil: "you believe or not openBD is getting successful, we have already ported three Apps because CF cost is too high in europe."

Which is exactly what Adam posted earlier, "Fundamentally, I don't believe that it will attract new developers. I think it will just continue with New Atlanta's strategy to chip away at the existing ColdFusion customer base."

I can't help but feel that's not growing the community, it's cannibalizing it.
Sami Hoda

Sami Hoda wrote on 05/30/08 8:47 PM

Just want to put things in perspective. I don't think anyone of us wants anyone from Adobe thinking thrice before submitting a blog post. This and my other posts provide valuable information about what's going on, what Adobe's thinking, etc.

Adam's post is a reaction in my opinion, not an offensive attack on certain persons, to what's being said in the community by more than just 2 individuals for quite some time. That being said, we can talk about how it was handled being right or wrong, but we all know that there have been much bigger controversies in the past, and there isn't any reason to attack Matt, Brian or Adam personally; or to make assumptions about motivations on either side.

There are legitimate grievances, like the price of CF, but this isn't necessarily the post to discuss those in either.

Its unfortunate that Matt resigned from being an Adobe Community Expert, but thats definitely his decision.

Two facts emerge: Adobe is working hard at Centaur. Persons in the community are working hard on OpenBD. There are bound to be clashes, lets just make sure we conduct ourselves better than the wars that occur in forums for other languages.

Besides the value prop for CF, we also know the community for CF is more welcoming and supportive than most, and our greatest asset is to work together, regardless of the server, but for the language & the community.
Roger Lancefield

Roger Lancefield wrote on 05/31/08 9:39 AM

Brock Baxter wrote:

> In many ways, the open source movement is just a fad

You really believe that? IMO, the reverse is true, it's large swathes of the proprietary software industry that's a fad! Exaggerated market share resulting from entrenchment and the legacy of monopoly generally give a false impression of the value and importance of proprietary software.

There's far too much technology in the computing "stack" to make paying for each layer viable. Water flows to lower places, and much of the FOSS proposition is in a "lower place" than comparable proprietary propositions. The market share of proprietary software is being steadily and continually eroded on most fronts you care to mention (especially if you look beyond the G8 nations).

Open source and the commoditization of so much essential software has virtually elminated whole categories of proprietary software, pushing it into niches and making that software challenging or impossible to charge for (e.g. web browsers, web servers, email clients, Java IDEs, programming languages, application servers (ColdFusion being one of the dwindling number of exceptions here of course), media players, news readers, RSS feed readers, the list goes on and on (for many people I know and collaborate with, you can add office suites and operating systems to the list as well!) In the past I've bought licences for all such software types, but with one or two exceptions I doubt that I'll ever need or want to do so again.

I think Matt Woodward is right. Whatever NewAtlanta's motives may be, Open BlueDragon is more important than many within the ColdFusion world realise. If you don't understand why this is so, you really need to spend some time hanging out in the FOSS world to experience the extraordinary energy and creativity that is generated there.

I read the NewAtlanta announcement a couple of weeks back and immediately installed a BD server on Ubuntu and downloaded the latest version of Fusebox. After two years immersed within the flexible but chaotic PHP universe, it was sweet indeed and great to know that whatever I build with this, I'll be free to do with it pretty much whatever I want.
jebus

jebus wrote on 06/11/09 8:46 PM

You really believe that? IMO, the reverse is true, it's large swathes of the proprietary software industry that's a fad! Exaggerated market share resulting from entrenchment and the legacy of monopoly generally give a false impression of the value and importance of proprietary software.
flashback

flashback wrote on 06/15/09 2:14 PM

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acekard 2i wrote on 06/15/09 10:21 PM

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hio

hio wrote on 06/17/09 10:06 AM

I am definitely looking forward to a public bug base and see a little more of the process. I only hope in any case, the community will cover the error / improved a bit, and not become a contest of egos that had the majority.
<a href="http://mtv-films.blogspot.com/">mtv-films.blogspot.com</a>;
Adobe has been on the improvement / bug "voting" and still going to say? There was no doubt "MEH" on the property during alpha / beta stages.
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m3i

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logo design services

logo design services wrote on 06/19/09 2:41 AM

OpenBD is a free open source project that anyone can download the binary or source of.
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Jogos Gratis

Jogos Gratis wrote on 06/21/09 3:58 PM

I like the feature of editing of images and PDFs in coldfusion 8 !!
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